Rather than answering "how" Pharaoh can be responsible for his sin even though God hardened his heart I said in our sermon this Sunday, "look, God doesn't give us an answer. Instead, he's calling us to trust him."
Do you feel that's somewhat of a cop out? And if it is, don't we have to say that about God since that's precisely what he says in Romans 9? I'm curious to hear from you the level of satisfaction we have with God's response to this question.
What I find interesting about God's response is he's really asking us to trust and believe him, isn't he? Kind of funny, in that, that's exactly what our relationship with him is grounded in... his revelation of himself and our trust in him.
Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Pastor Brian
9 comments:
God is awesome, incomprehensible by us, and in total ownership of his creation. His authority has no rival and is never in doubt or in question.
When my pride and self absorbed nature does not get in the way, God’s response affirms my faith and trust in him when earthly circumstances lead to worry or to question on an outcome.
True joy and peace for me is when I am completely trusting and accepting of his will. I just wish it was more often I completely surrender to his authority. (Sigh)
Pastor Brian,
Over the years I have heard many different explanations of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. Some say God simply gave him over to his own hardness, that God let him continue in the way he was going without intervening and turning him back to Himself. Others have said that God, since he knows everything, knew Paraoh would never believe in God, and therefore hardened his heart to make a point without really changing Paraoh's eternal destiny. That arguement is used a lot with election, that God simply knows who will choose him and who will not and then predestines them accordingly. What are your thoughts to these responses to this scripture?
Hey Tara,
Thanks for the questions. As for Pharaoh, I think there are biblical reasons for thinking that way. We see in Romans 1 that God gives people over to their depravity and wickedness. So, one of the ways God punishes unbelievers is by turning them over to the full weight and wrath of their sin. The 2 Thess. passage we looked at yesterday says that God sending the lost a strong delusion is connected to their unbelief and hatred of what is true. So I think there is some support for the idea that God turns one's sin and hardness of heart against them. I would agree with that; I just wonder, though, if that's the full story. I'm not sure.
As to your question about election, there are two problems with that idea (1 philosophical and 1 biblical). Philosophically speaking, it bothers me that an infinite God is "limited" by what we may or may not do or choose. The argument goes, before time, God knows the countless ways we would choose and act based on any given set of circumstances and then chooses the best possible world based on those decisions (like, the most people who would be saved). But this requires that the infinite God is limited to my choices and actions. I have a problem with a God who is limited by me.
Biblically speaking, and we looked at some of these verses yesterday, the scriptures tell us that we are saved not by our will but by God's. John 1:12-13 and Romans 9:9-16 both say that we are born of God "not by human will or exertion, but because of God." Speaking of Jacob and Esau, vs. 11 says "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call." It doesn't seem to me that God is "choosing" or "electing" based on the decisions of man he knows we would make "before the foundations of the world" but is electing based on his own call and mercy.
So those explanations to election don't seem as strong to me. What are your thoughts?
Brian
I totally agree with your point about other passages where God "gives people over" to their sin. I just always figured that because God said, "I have hardened his heart" ten times probably indicated a more active role of God in the story of Pharaoh than Him just backing off and letting Pharaoh's own heart lead him to destruction. I tend to think there is more to the story than that explanation as well.
As for election, when others have simply said that God chooses those whom He foreknew would choose Him, my response tends to be, "so what's the point of God's election, then?" If they would have chosen God anyway, why did God need to "do" anything? Does God's election or predestination really count for anything if it is based on whatever my choice would have been anyway? It seems to take all the meaning out of the word election to look at it that way. When we elect someone to a position, it is a "choice" that is made by us, the people, not the one being elected.
I never did answer your initial "cop out" question. Last week at the youth center we were talking with the kids about honoring their parents. One student brought of the instance of when parents reply, "because I said so." Luke and the rest of the leaders agreed that this is a reasonable answer and that children should accept this answer without more questioning. If I'm willing to teach this principle to students regarding their parents, then I should be able to accept the same principle concerning my own relationship with God. Should is the key word. I sometimes still want to stomp my feet like a four-year-old and scream "WHY?!" But, as you showed us yesterday, Romans 9 does make it pretty clear. Knowing the truth and being completely satisfied with that truth are perhaps two different things for me, at least in this case.
Brian,
As with the example of God hardening Pharoah's heart and yet holding him accountable for his own actions, the questions that arise, and the answers thereof, I find that those arguments MAY hold some merit and yet I'm neither compelled to believe nor disbelieve them... wasn't that the point of the sermon? Just trusting God because we believe He can be trusted? It is worth mentioning as it was concerning pharoah and his responsibility that while it is clear it is God's choosing that it's either equally clear that we make a choice - or the most confusing thing in all of scripture! Can that be because of God's forknowledge (simply 'knowledge' to a God who exists outside of time as we know it - He created it)? Or can that be sovereign design with the understanding of time as we do know it? Etc., etc., and mostly etc.
I personally don't believe this is limiting God with His choice to allow ours (Yes it's his design, plan, orchestation, will, etc. If He is deciding to act according to His own call and mercy by allowing our choices, how does that limit Him? )any more than I think it limits Him by simply predestining everything... (Again, either one is His choice) But, and again going back to Sunday, isn't that what it was about? "Because I said so!" Experiencing his character and responding with trust...
My only question and it's two sided is where does that leave the unsaved? And specifically the ones who were in attendance? Were I not saved and in attendance my question would have been, "Where does that leave me? Am I one that God is going to confound? Is there hope for me?"
I think that we can respond emphatically, "YES! THERE IS HOPE FOR YOU!" Not having the literal mind of God it must be abundantly clear that He is patient not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance... that whosoever believes will not perish but have everlasting life... etc. I think we dillute God's character in an attempt to exhalt his power by inisisting that we have nothing to do with it in somuch as it takes away our belief (unsaved) or hope... That it can't be reconciled by meer human minds is obvious... but I don't think we err by insisting that all relevant scripture concerning salvation be included in the catagory of 'things that we just have to trust God for'.
I guess my point is that no matter the attempt to mutually edify, this is the kind of thing that is better left to wonder about than to speculate how or why... I only wish that included in the sermon for those who may not know God or have a clue what we're talking about is that He is a God of Hope for all people and for all individuals... To leave out the idea that there is hope for everyone is to inadvertantly portray Him as a capricious God and that's not God confounding man, that's man confounding man because that is not who He is....
Just my take on it.
Blessings in Christ! Tim Sigmund
Hey Brian, just read Tim's post...and I can't remember...but at the end of the second service didn't you address this? I listened to the sermon online (the one Tim listened to), and I was thinking you ended it a little differently...But alas, I do not have my notes with me (left them at small group) so I can't remember...lol
Bottom line, I feel that the most important thing is to not make God SEEM like a bully, WE know he isn't...but do the unbelievers attending church? But like I said...I walked out of church under the belief that you addressed that issue...
Tara, thanks for sharing your perspective and experiences. They are helpful.
Tim, thanks for the thoughts. Sermons can only be so long (as most appreciate, I'm guessing!) so one has to be selective in what one shares. I tried to make sure I included God's merciful invitation to all by quoting John 3:16, Romans 8:32 and Ex. 34:6-7 which all emphasize God's incredible mercy and grace.
My effort, in every sermon really, is to say clearly what God says clearly. I purposefully avoided the weeds on Sunday... I don't like speculation or conjecture; that's why I preached as I did.
Hey Marybeth, my sermons aren't always identical. Full disclosure: I woke up Sunday morning at 1am with a fever that lasted through Sunday afternoon. I doped up on Tylenol and Motrin so I didn't feel quite as clear-headed in the 1st service as the 2nd. I asked the pastors who were in both services if they could tell a difference and they said they couldn't, but I just felt I was clearer in the second.
Thanks for the feedback. I pray we are finding God good in all of this.
Brian
Brian,
Thanks for responding... Marybeth indicated after she read my blog and then listened to the sermon that she thought you included more of that in the service she attended (second service). I hope I didn't come off as proud, jaded, know it all, etc. I re-read it and I guess it sounds more like a critics revue than a 'druther'. Like my dad says, sorry I blew up! At any rate we have and do feel blessed, convicted, edified, challenged, and thank you for all that you do! We'll talk to you soon. Love in Christ, Tim
Tara-
My wife and I have been having this discussion for two weeks, ever since our discussion at youth group. I have still undecided, but in our small group it was made very clear that there is only a very small portion of God that we are revealed ad beyond that we should not look to try and explain God. That can be frustrating, I can totally relate to that. I feel that election can allow us to feel conceded and arrogant with our faith, so I have come to the conclusion that I am saved by faith through Grace and there really is nothing that I did because God saved me when I was Dead in transgression. I really did not choose him. I simply did not reject him. We also sometimes forget about the power of the Holy Spirit and how that part of the trinity sometimes gets short changed in the equation. Through Faith we receive the Holy Spirit upon our Baptism. God essentially lives in us and we grow as we allow the Holy Spirit full reign in our lives. Sometimes we feel far away from God and from this sermon series God can use that for our good. However, I have trouble believing that God turns his back on us, yet I affirm what the BIBLE affirms. I know that there was a time in my life where I felt very distant from my heavenly father - I don't know if he was hardening my heart, or it was I who hardened my own. What I do know is he did not temp me or cause me to sin. Also, I needed to go through that time to grow closer to him and to find his grace. I feel so privileged to be called his child and in that I know that there has to be a plan from the very beginning of creation for my life and the life I would lead. I question what is free will really? We have free will to believe, so we are not forced into his Kingdom, but can we be forced to disbelieve? From what I gather, God chooses who he reveals himself to and in that way they do not come to know HIM. Are they accountable for this? Yes, why? We don't really know, but God is sovereign and just and we all deserve death so that is why it is called a GIFT of salvation. To complicate things then, did Jesus die for all or did he die only for those who would believe or he elected?
I am pretty sure you could study this until you were blue in the face and it is interesting. I was told that if we presume to know more about God than what is revealed we are probably a heretic. Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. Faith takes work and takes study. This allows us to grow in HIS word. God reveals things to us as we are ready.
Great discussion! Lastly, I don't think that Churches should separate on this issue, because there is no way for us to understand God, we must believe what the Bible teaches and sometimes the simple answer we don't know is really the best one. What would faith be if everything were black and white? My problem with this is how do we share this with an unbeliever? A seed is planted, it is really beyond our control if they will believe.
James Stokes
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